As a palette cleanser after our political kerfuffle, here's a book review that I originally posted on June 21, 2008. Happily it is Trump-free, though trumpets do make an appearance. 

~~~~

Arthur Findlay's On the Edge of the Etheric was first published in 1931. The used edition I purchased came out in 1970; it was the 66th printing in the United Kingdom. The book has been translated into at least 19 languages as well as Braille. According to Amazon.com, the book remains in print to this day.

Clearly, On the Edge of the Etheric has found an audience. And it's easy enough to see why. Arthur Findlay provides a convincing portrait of an otherwise little-known British medium, John C. Sloan.

Sloan appears to have been a man of high moral scruples. He accepted no remuneration of any kind for the many séances he conducted, preferring to maintain a regular 9-to-5 job to pay his bills. He practiced trance mediumship as well as direct voice and produced various physical effects such as levitating trumpets. He supplied a great deal of accurate and detailed information without prompting, often addressing sitters who were strangers to him and whose names he had never been given. He cooperated with sensible tests carried out to preclude fraud. Findlay reports putting his ear against the medium's lips while direct voice communication was in progress. Though the voice continued, there was no sound emanating from Sloan's mouth. On another occasion, Findlay heard a slight hissing sound from Sloan while the voice emanated from the center of the room some distance away. Sometimes two or three voices would talk at once. Sitters were able to identify deceased loved ones by their distinctive voices and by the specific, personal information that was conveyed.

There seems to be no possibility that Sloan used an accomplice, since his lodgings were typically searched before each session. Moreover, it would be hard to imagine any motive for an elaborate deception lasting for many years, even decades, when there was no money or fame involved. Sloan sought no publicity and would probably not be remembered at all if not for Findlay's book, which was published some years after the séances took place.

Findlay gives examples of Sloan's readings, classifying them as A1 and A2 cases. The A1 cases are those in which Findlay feels that fraud, telepathy, cryptaesthesia, and other non-survival explanations can be ruled out. In the A2 cases the evidence is not quite as clear cut but still highly suggestive.

In one instance, Findlay seems to misclassify a case. This is the second case listed in chapter 8. Here, Findlay reports knowing some details about a painting owned by a friend. At a later séance, a different friend was addressed by the direct voice, which said, "Tell your friend Dr. Lamond, 18 Regent Terrace, Edinburgh, that I am much obliged to him for keeping his promise and placing my picture on his mantelpiece." The name and address given were correct, but the friend knew nothing about the painting. Findlay writes, "This is another fool-proof case … it being quite free from any other explanation than that the personality of [the painter] was present, and spoke. Otherwise how could such a message have come?" Of course, there is another possible explanation — telepathy. Since Findlay himself knew all the details of the painting, it is at least conceivable that the medium read his mind. It seems odd that Findlay overlooked this obvious objection, and it does cast some doubt on how accurately he categorized the cases in general.

Nevertheless, the evidence he gives is quite persuasive overall. There seems little doubt that John C. Sloan was an exceptionally talented trance and direct voice medium who was immune to the blandishments of fame and fortune.

A large part of the book is taken up with an explanation of how séances are conducted "on the other side." How exactly is the direct voice manifested? According to Findlay, who asked this question many times during the séances and received detailed answers, some vital force known as ectoplasm is elicited from the medium and the sitters, and is then collected in a kind of bowl. Using this ectoplasm, the communicator is able to materialize his hands, which he then uses to create a masklike form. He presses his face into this mask until it coats his mouth, tongue, and throat. With this coating in place, the communicator's etheric body takes on the "heaviness" necessary to produce sound vibrations in the physical world.

Of course the concept of ectoplasm is difficult for many of us to accept; it is too reminiscent of cheesy Hollywood movies and the pronouncements of fraudulent mediums. But if materializations are possible, then presumably some kind of quasi-physical substance is involved, and ectoplasm is probably as good a word for it as any.

Another large portion of the book concerns the allegedly scientific basis for materialization and direct voice mediumship. Unfortunately, Findlay's argument is based on the now-outdated notion of the ether, a substance once thought to pervade the cosmos and serve as the medium for the propagation of electromagnetic waves. Findlay believed that the key to mediumship was understanding differences in the frequency of vibration of the ether. Indeed, many sources affirm that "vibrations" of some sort are critical in mediumistic communication. If there is no such thing as ether, then what is vibrating? As far as I know, there is no answer to this question (though The Unobstructed Universe, by Stewart Edward White, attempts to supply one — as I recall, the book posits "vibrations of consciousness").

A minor impediment to accepting the phenomena Findlay describes is the nature of Sloan's spirit control, an American Indian named Whitefeather. As was all too common in séances of this period, Whitefeather spoke in broken English, using the cliché expressions of a B-movie Indian. It is hard to take this personality at face value, although Findlay does mention that, in life, Whitefeather knew no English and learned his English by participating in the séances. If true, this might suggest that the expectations of the sitters influenced the idioms used by the spirit control. In other words, perhaps Whitefeather spoke like an Indian in a penny-dreadful novel because that was how his audience expected him to speak.

Interestingly, another Indian communicator spoke flawless English. The explanation he provided was that he learned English in his earthly life.

Whatever the deficiencies of the spirit controls, the information that came through the séances is quite impressive. Findlay gives only a few cases out of the scores he witnessed, but these are highly convincing. Here is an abbreviated version of one of the best:

I took my brother with me to a séance shortly after he was demobilised from the Army in 1919. He knew no one present, and was not introduced. No one present, except myself, knew that he had been in the Army. No one present knew where he had been during his time in the Army. His health had not permitted him to go abroad, and he was stationed part of the time near Lowestoft at a small village called Kessingland, and part of the time at Lowestoft, training gunners …

During the course of the sitting the trumpet was distinctly heard moving about the room, and various voices spoke through it. Suddenly it tapped my brother on the right knee, and a voice directly in front of him said, "Eric Saunders". My brother asked if the voice were addressing him, and it replied "Yes", whereupon he said that there must be some mistake, as he had never known anybody of that name….

[My brother] asked where he had met him. The answer was: "In the Army." My brother mentioned a number of places, such as Aldershot, Bisley, France, Palestine, etc., but carefully omitted Lowestoft, where he had been stationed for the greater part of his army life. The voice replied "No, none of those places. I knew you when you were near Lowestoft." My brother asked why he said "Near Lowestoft," and he replied: "You were not in Lowestoft then, but at Kessingland." …

My brother then asked what company [Saunders] had been attached to, and, as he could not make out whether he said "B" or "C", my brother asked if he could remember the name of the Company Commander. The reply was "Macnamara." This was the name of the officer commanding "B" Company at that time. By way of a test, my brother pretended that he remembered the man, and said: "Oh yes, you were one of my Lewis gunners, were you not?" The reply was: "No, you had not the Lewis guns then, it was the Hotchkiss." This was quite correct, as the Lewis guns were taken from them in April 1917, and were replaced by Hotchkiss ….

[Saunders] told my brother he had been killed in France, and my brother asked him when he had gone out. He replied that he had gone with the "Big Draft in August 1917". My brother asked him why he called it the Big Draft, and he said: "Don't you remember the Big Draft, when the Colonel came on the parade ground and made a speech." This reference was to a particularly large draft sent out to France that month, and was the only occasion on which my brother remembered the Colonel ever personally saying good-bye to the men ….

About six months after the above incident my brother was in London, and met, by appointment, the corporal who had been his assistant with the light guns in his battalion at the time. My brother told him the above story, and asked if he remembered any man named "Eric Saunders"….

The corporal had brought with him an old pocket diary, in which he had been in the habit of keeping a full list of men under training, and other information. He pulled it out of his pocket, and together they looked back until they came to the records of "B" Company during 1917. Sure enough the name appear there, "Eric Saunders, f.q., August '17", with a red-ink line drawn through it; f.q. stood for fully qualified, and, though my brother knew the meaning of the red-ink line, he asked the corporal when it meant. He replied: "Don't you remember, Mr. Findlay, I always drew a line through the man's names when they went away. This shows that Saunders went out in August 1917."…

It is a remarkable case, as it is fraud proof, telepathy proof, and cryptaesthesia proof. Not only did no one present know my brother, but my brother did not know the speaker, and cannot even to-day recollect him, as he was passing hundreds of men through their training … This case contains fourteen separate facts; each one was correct.

 

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  1. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    I research lots of this stuff (NDE’s, deathbed vision, OOBE’s, etc) on the Internet and watch innumerable videos on YouTube of people telling their stories. It strikes me odd—one can get the impression these events are as common as sliced bread yet I have never had the slightest contact with anything paranormal, and even more peculiar everyone I have talked to who has been in an NDE situation, or been with dying relatives—when I ask them if any of this has ever happened to them they say no, it hasn’t.
    It raises a red flag in my mind when I hear someone say, “My dying mother said, ‘I see Aunt Gladys sitting in the chair. She’s come to take me with her’ A few minutes later she was dead.” It just doesn’t happen like that in real life. Nearly all people go into comas by the time death comes. I myself have been with three people close to me who have passed away. None of them ever made any indications they were seeing any spirits or angels in the room up to weeks before they passed away.
    And why have none of these conversations the dying have with spirits ever been caught on video to corroborate these stories of deathbed visions, for all the billions of videos we shoot thee days. I realize it would be a one-way conversation in that we’d only hear the dying person speaking, but at least it’d be some evidence seeing a person having a conversation with an unseen spirit even if it did appear hallucinatory, though many of these conversations I hear are totally lucid.
    Nurses who I have asked offhand if they’d ever had patients who indicated spirit visitors said without hesitation, no they hadn’t, and people online in chatrooms who have described their own experiences say no, they’ve never had any type of spiritual encounter, either going down a tunnel in an NDE or having been with dying relatives who started talking to spirit visitors in the room.
    It’s like a paradox. On the one hand millions of people tell their stories on blogs, books, TV, YouTube videos, etc and yet on the other hand I cannot meet a single person in real life who has had one of these experiences. I really feel “left out of the loop” so to speak. I know realistically that of a million of these stories maybe half are total BS used to sell books, but that still leaves the other half of the stories which are coming from decent, forthright, honest people like Arthur Findlay who have no ax to grind and no reason to lie about something like this. So why is it so hard to find just one person who will corroborate even one deathbed vision experience or NDE or just one video? It’s baffling to me

  2. David r Avatar
    David r

    Michael, did it occur to you before that if paranormalist spiritualists keep a low profile because they don’t want to endure the ridicule and presence of skeptics that it could be because they actually have no real evidence to speak of?
    It seems obvious enough to me that a spiritualist that makes the claim that they can provide evidence ought not to back away from that claim in the presence of a skeptic, lest it make the former have to revise their objective claim. It seems so obvious to me that I cannot believe that when people say that in the presence of a skeptic the spiritual phenomena cease to operate that there is actually objective claim that stands up to scrutiny.
    If all it takes is for one skeptic at some seance to disrupt the objective evidential phenomena from happening, then I see no reason to take the claims of the spiritualists seriously.
    Did you ever see that TV show where James Randi tested psychics and they all failed? Every single one of the psychics failed his tests. There was absolutely none of them that went on his show that passed any of his tests. So if there is supposed to be spiritual realities in truth and objective fact and reality, some of the psychics should have passed his tests but in actuality zero of them did. How can one man stop 100 psychics simply because he doubts that they can produce evidence?
    That doesn’t add up.

  3. Michael Prescott Avatar

    Mike wrote, “… everyone I have talked to who has been in an NDE situation, or been with dying relatives—when I ask them if any of this has ever happened to them they say no, it hasn’t.”
    I’ve talked to people who say they have had NDEs and that they have experienced seemingly paranormal events in the presence of the dying. The latter seems to be quite common among hospice workers, especially nurses. Do you think it’s possible that your way of asking the question makes people reluctant to share their stories? I’m pretty sure that in my younger days, when I was more skeptical, my tone and attitude would have unconsciously discouraged people from talking about such personal things.
    As far as videos of deathbed visions are concerned, I doubt many people would want to shoot video of a dying loved one in a hospice or hospital setting. It is not a pleasant situation, as I can testify from firsthand experience.
    On the other hand, I agree that YouTube videos and reality TV shows are not reliable sources of information. For a serious look at deathbed visions, you could try Osis and Haraldsson’s classic cross-cultural study “At the Hour of Death.”
    http://www.amazon.com/At-Hour-Death-Evidence-After-ebook/dp/B009NWRG9E

  4. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    My grandmother reported deathbed visions of her long-dead father telling her it was time to go shortly before she died.
    I have a friend who works in a nursing home who has seen many people report death bed visions and NDE-like encounters. She says it happens all the time.

  5. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    I’d still like a skeptical explanation for the reading I had last week.

  6. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Mike,
    My dad had an NDE. My grandmother had an NDE. I’ve had numerous spiritual experiences.
    I really think one’s “vibe” comes into play. If you really believe that certain things are impossible, you tend not to “go there.” OTOH, it’s possible to go down the rabbit hole in which *everything* seems to be the flavor of one’s obsession: paranormal phenomenon, UFOs, conspiracies, or everyday stuff like getting in trouble with the law.
    It’s interesting. I’ve had three speeding tickets in my life and otherwise no problems with law enforcement. Then there are people who are just constantly getting in trouble and getting arrested, even if they are not major criminals or anything. Some of that, sure, comes down to concrete, objectively verifiable behaviors, but I think there’s something more at work.
    And so on.
    David r,
    You are at the remedial skeptic stage. You have to do better than that. In all seriousness, if you don’t think any of the phenomena are real, why are you a frequent commenter on this site?
    I think fundamentalist Christianity is really, really stupid, but I don’t go to fundie sites and share my opinion. Why? There are multiple reason. Even if I don’t agree with the belief system, I don’t necessarily dislike the people. I don’t even necessarily think that *they* are stupid. To the contrary, sometimes very smart people can memorize the Bible and become literally able to cite chapter and verse on everything.
    That’s their reality. I don’t need to dis it up close. What I would have to say would have no meaning to them. Insofar as their worldview clashes with Reality, they are just going to have to tease that out themselves.

  7. SPatel Avatar
    SPatel

    As I’ve noted on this site my mother had a death bed vision when she passed.
    So that’s one more to the tally.

  8. David r Avatar
    David r

    Matt, I don’t know why but for some reason you seem to think I am a fundamentalist Christian. I am not. But that probably explains your attitude towards me.

  9. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    Mike writes: “So why is it so hard to find just one person who will corroborate even one deathbed vision experience or NDE or just one video? It’s baffling to me.”
    And I’m not being facetious when I say that I find it baffling that despite all your efforts you haven’t found any direct evidence of this phenomenon, Mike.
    Most families have one such experience to recount. In my family there have been several. The earliest that I remember was my father coming home from a hospital visit. One of his oldest friends was dying and as my father entered the room his friend excitedly beckoned him over to say hello to a couple of mutual friends that had died some years ago. What struck my father most forcibly was the fact that there was absolutely no doubt in the dying man’s mind that the experience was real and that my father would be able to share the experience. My father said he’d never before seen his friend so joyfully animated – especially considering how weakened he’d become by illness.
    The most recent experience occurred a few years ago, when my sister was dying. A few hours before she passed over, my brother-in-law and I both saw a violet-coloured spirit light above the head of her bed and to the right.We saw it at exactly the same time and exchanged a glance of acknowledgement.
    While I realise that these are simply more anacdotes, I can’t help wondering whether the fact that you are deliberately and determinedly looking for direct examples of these phenomena is serving only to.make them all the more elusive. Despite the fact that I’ve tended to post here quite regularly on the subject and despite the fact that I’ve had far more than my fair share of psychic encounters, it’s not something I think about very often. Every single paranormal experience has caught me off guard. For me it’s an awareness that enters through the back door, as it were. But then my entire approach has always been to let life find me rather than go out striving. And it was a mystical/near-death-type experience at an early age that showed me the importance of looking at life that way. I place an innocent trust in life and then step out of the way – if you follow. 🙂

  10. no one Avatar
    no one

    Hi Mike,
    I have personally had paranormal experiences. Most notably, OBEs after which I was able to verify that perceptions I had while aware beyond my physical body were accurate in the objective world. I like to talk about that stuff, but I never do with colleagues at work and I even have personal friends that may be unaware of my experiences and even my interest because I don’t talk about it with them. I don’t because they wouldn’t believe it and I’d find myself in a frustrating defensive posture trying to explain all the background so as to convince them that I’m not lying, stupid or crazy. It’s just not worth it.
    My mother was a very agnostic person when asked about religion, who didn’t contemplate these things. Yet when her father dies several states away, she had a clear vision of him sitting on her bed telling her that he had passed and everything was ‘ok’. She told me this the morning it happened to prepare me for the phone call that came shortly afterwards. She knew she’d be hearing about it. She may have mentioned the incident to me one other time later, but, otherwise, I never heard her talk about it.
    I volunteer at a hospice care home. As I’ve said elsewhere on this blog, dying residents do have these visions; albeit more rarely than some would think (though it may be that they are having them more frequently, but don’t communicate that they are). Also, I have definitely encountered paranormal phenomena at the time of a resident’s death.
    When I started volunteering at the hospice house the person in charge of orienting volunteers asked me about my paranormal/spiritual beliefs. I gave a brief overview and she explained to me that it was good that I had an open mind because there would be times when paranormal things would happen and I have to deal with it. She even described some things she had experienced. On the other hand, one of the people that was assigned to be my trainer for the first few months told me that she didn’t believe in any of it and had NEVER experienced anything to challenge her outlook. That same night, the other volunteer that was there pulled me aside and told me to not listen to the first person because volunteering there would make a believer out of me if I wasn’t already. Both people had been volunteers for many years. So what do we make of that?
    IMO, generally speaking, people “see” what they are tuned to see. I think this is true when it comes to the “normal” as well as the paranormal. On top of that, people don’t always tell you what they are thinking. People want to protect their own feelings, your feelings, maintain privacy, etc. etc. People want to perceive in ways that protect the world views that they have psychologically and emotionally invested heavily in.
    It’s really hard to know what’s really going on, if there is any single truth to the question.

  11. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    “It seems so obvious to me that I cannot believe that when people say that in the presence of a skeptic the spiritual phenomena cease to operate that there is actually objective claim that stands up to scrutiny.”
    Well, for me that is not obvious because psi phenomena appear to be no purely objective phenomena, but erases the objective / subjective dichotomy, being dependent on the moods of those present and can be suppressed in the presence of a hostile environment.
    It was also considered that the Earth is flat is obvious, and it is a false assertion…

  12. Michael Prescott Avatar

    David R wrote, “Matt, I don’t know why but for some reason you seem to think I am a fundamentalist Christian. I am not.”
    He’s probably remembering some of your earlier posts:
    —-
    You think that belief has got something to do with levitation? And you think it is an example of macro PK? I don’t. Not at all. The fact that these things don’t happen to protestants but only Catholics is a clue to the whole thing. You would have to research how the Catholics are corrupted. (6-5-15)
    Michael, have you considered seriously the idea that the “spirits” might not be who they say they are? Could these spirits be demonic entities? It is worth entertaining as a valid possibility, even if you aren’t a fan of Christianity. Haven’t you ever wondered why the success rate of psychics is so poor? Could it be that the reason for this is because demons are deceiving beings? Have you ever wondered why people that have sleep paralysis say that the only thing that seems to help them is to call out to Jesus? (6-4-15)
    Matt, I apologise if this sounds bad, but perhaps it never occurred to you that “spirits” might in fact be evil spirits and not dead people. And all that entails. I spent over 20 years investigating all this paranormal and parapsychology stuff, and my conclusion in the end was that all of these manifestations stop occurring as soon as Jesus is invoked. It could simply be that spiritists are under bondage and they don’t know it. (4-16-15)
    —-
    In fairness, you’ve also said you’re not a conventional Christian, but I think you can see where people might get the idea that you are somewhat invested in Christianity.

  13. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    David R,
    ||Matt, I don’t know why but for some reason you seem to think I am a fundamentalist Christian. I am not. But that probably explains your attitude towards me.||
    Actually, I was using fundamentalist Christianity as an example of a worldview to which I don’t subscribe, but I also don’t go out of my way to agitate its believers. It (and other types of dogmatic Christianity) and materialism are the biggest blockades in the West to many paranormal phenomena being recognized.
    As for my feelings about you, I don’t know you as a person. You may be awesome! But in terms of your posting behavior, here is what I don’t like:
    1. You don’t post under your own name. I do most of my posting online under my real name. I think it’s important to own what say and think. Most people here either post under their own names or their identities are otherwise known.
    2. Your actual belief system remains a mystery though does seem, as Michael notes, to lean toward one type of Christianity or another.
    3. You don’t believe in any of the phenomena we discuss but want to comment on them. Why is that?
    4. You are not, IMHO, representative of the astute Christians or skeptics who could actually make a contribution to this blog by expressing an alternative viewpoint.
    If you start offering opinions and observations that add to the discussion, my opinion will surely change.

  14. Roger Knights Avatar
    Roger Knights

    IMO, generally speaking, people “see” what they are tuned to see.
    —No One

    Another way of saying that is, “The ears have walls.”
    (I invented that on my own and was pleased with myself until I Googled for it and found I was not the first. Another one I was a latecomer inventor of was, “Hype springs eternal.”)

  15. Bruce Siegel Avatar

    Mike said:
    “II have never had the slightest contact with anything paranormal, and even more peculiar everyone I have talked to who has been in an NDE situation, or been with dying relatives.”
    Where do you live, Mike? It might be easier to meet NDErs than you think.
    When I first became interested in NDEs, it was after a 25-year period of being an absolute denier of all things spiritual. But what I was learning was so compelling, I simply had to find out if there were any truth to it. So I began attending local IANDS meetings.
    IANDS = International Association of Near-Death Experiencers. There are many chapters world-wide:
    http://iands.org/groups/affiliated-groups/find-a-group/55-local-groups.html
    It’s a great opportunity to meet NDErs and talk with them.

  16. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Hi Bruce
    Good idea! There don’t seem to be any in the UK sadly.

  17. David r Avatar
    David r

    Matt, if you are supposed to be psychic then you should know that I am using my real name. If you doubt it, ask Michael.
    As to the charge that I am a fundamentalist Christian I have also already written on these forums that I follow the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda, so the charge doesn’t apply to me.
    As to the charge (attack) that I don’t contribute to the discussion that is pathetically ignorant.
    “why behold the mote that is in your brother’s eye” etc.

  18. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    David r
    ||Matt, if you are supposed to be psychic then you should know that I am using my real name. If you doubt it, ask Michael.||
    I never really thought about whether “David r” is your real name, but “r” isn’t a full last name, is it?
    ||As to the charge that I am a fundamentalist Christian I have also already written on these forums that I follow the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda, so the charge doesn’t apply to me.||
    So why all the talk about Jesus countering sleep paralysis, etc.?
    ||As to the charge (attack) that I don’t contribute to the discussion that is pathetically ignorant.||
    “Ignorant” means lacking in information. What I said was a matter of opinion.
    There are people I disagree with here (in varying degrees) who are quite knowledgeable about a wide range of topics. So it’s not the fact that I disagree with you about stuff. It’s just that I haven’t seen that level of contribution yet. That may change over time, of course.
    You also didn’t answer my question about why you’re here if you don’t believe in any of the phenomena.

  19. SPatel Avatar
    SPatel

    @ Michael:
    Can’t recall if I mentioned this essay on Spiritualism in The Revealer? ->
    http://therevealer.org/archives/19370
    =-=-=
    Taggart was skeptical. “I’m thinking, ‘Okay. Well that could mean many things,’” she said. “I didn’t go into his séance expecting anything. I got to sit in the front row, about six feet away from him.” She kept a camera on her lap.
    “He was seated in front of a low red light,” she said. The room was dark, otherwise. After twenty minutes, the medium’s wife announced that spirits were going to begin working with his hands. Taggart remembered the next moment very clearly: “He just brought out his hand. What I saw, with my eyes, was this regular hand just very gently and instantly —skip gigantic.”
    “I screamed out loud,” she continued. “Which is very impolite in a séance situation.”
    =-=-=

  20. David r Avatar
    David r

    Matt,
    I have made myself perfectly clear already and I am sad and sorry that you respond to me the way you do.
    To answer your question, I never once said that I don’t believe in any of the phenomena mentioned on this website. Indeed, it would seem inconsistent for me to ascribe spirit phenomena to “demons” and then turn around and say that I didn’t believe in any spiritual forces, which seems to be the thrust of your opinion here. Of course, I am not a mind reader so I won’t hold that against you 🙂

  21. Michael Prescott Avatar

    Dvaid R wrote, “I never once said that I don’t believe in any of the phenomena mentioned on this website.”
    But three days ago he posted this comment, reproduced in its entirety:
    “Michael, did it occur to you before that if paranormalist spiritualists keep a low profile because they don’t want to endure the ridicule and presence of skeptics that it could be because they actually have no real evidence to speak of? It seems obvious enough to me that a spiritualist that makes the claim that they can provide evidence ought not to back away from that claim in the presence of a skeptic, lest it make the former have to revise their objective claim. It seems so obvious to me that I cannot believe that when people say that in the presence of a skeptic the spiritual phenomena cease to operate that there is actually objective claim that stands up to scrutiny. If all it takes is for one skeptic at some seance to disrupt the objective evidential phenomena from happening, then I see no reason to take the claims of the spiritualists seriously. Did you ever see that TV show where James Randi tested psychics and they all failed? Every single one of the psychics failed his tests. There was absolutely none of them that went on his show that passed any of his tests. So if there is supposed to be spiritual realities in truth and objective fact and reality, some of the psychics should have passed his tests but in actuality zero of them did. How can one man stop 100 psychics simply because he doubts that they can produce evidence? That doesn’t add up.”
    Obviously he’s trolling us by making various provocative statements that are inconsistent from one day to the next. I will not publish his comments anymore. Disagreement is fine, but it has to be honest disagreement, not arguing just to stir up trouble.

  22. Michael Prescott Avatar

    Just to nail down the point, six days ago David R wrote:
    “FDR, presumably the medium you saw could tell you exactly where your Mum is? Or any other of your loved ones? Are they supposed to be in ‘heaven’? or are they ‘earth bound’? Why don’t ‘dead’ people communicate with mediums from hellish states of existence to bring back a message for their loved ones on earth? Are we to believe that dead people are hanging around in the air somewhere just waiting for an opportunity to speak through a medium?”
    So when he says, “I never once said that I don’t believe in any of the phenomena mentioned on this website” … he’s not being quite accurate.
    Again, it’s fine to disagree and be skeptical, but not to pose as skeptic one day, a religious person on another day, and a proponent of the paranormal on yet another day.

  23. Adeimantus Avatar
    Adeimantus

    Shame about David r, but he’s been demonstrating confused thought processes throughout my short time here. Thought processes that, if not motivated by troll-dom, then contaminated by fundie upbringing I would say (I mean, “demons”, really?).
    He showed that classic ability, normally associated with Skeptics, to completely gloss over the specific factual information provided by FDR’s medium, and to instead pose derisive questions like “are we to believe dead people are hanging around in the air…etc?”.
    However, again I note that Bill has gone quiet when asked to explain in reductionist-materialist terms how FDR’s medium, or indeed the medium and circle of my own recent experience, produced their respective phenomena…

  24. Michael Tymn Avatar

    I would add Etta Wriedt to the list of best direct-voice mediums. In fact, I would put her above the other three mentioned. Of course, Bill can go to Wikipedia and see that one Kristian Birkeland, a physicist, detected a chemical compound on the end of her trumpet, thus “proving” fraud. No matter that the chemical compound does not explain the many voices or the very veridical information coming through, or even that the chemical compound may have been components of ectoplasm, it has to be fraud.
    Since Babe Ruth struck out 1,300+ times during his career, Bill should be able to make a good case for his having been a very poor ballplayer. His strikeouts were almost double his home run output. Res Ipsa Loquitor.

  25. Roger Knights Avatar
    Roger Knights

    I’m pleased to see that the convention of capitalizing capital-S skeptics as such is catching on. It is economical (brief), non-inflammatory, and precise (differentiating ordinary skeptics from extremist skeptics).

  26. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    But my two objections in a previous comment have not yet been answered.

  27. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Roger Knights wrote,
    ||I’m pleased to see that the convention of capitalizing capital-S skeptics as such is catching on. It is economical (brief), non-inflammatory, and precise (differentiating ordinary skeptics from extremist skeptics).||
    Yes, it’s a capital idea!
    Pun and sincere congratulations on your creativity intended. It’s a very good idea. 🙂

  28. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    Adeimantus: indeed, what is the materialist explanation for my reading?
    ***I know I’m not making it up, so saying that “the report is fraudulent” doesn’t work on me.
    ****She gave very specific factual details, not vague leading questions.
    ***Much of the material are personal memories or things that only my mother and I know, not things that would be found on an internet search for example, or things that would be discovered by a hired private investigator would be able to discover.
    ***There is no materialist explanation that I can think of. It is either super-PSI or talking with my mom. Either thing would invalidate the normal materialist/Skeptic model of consciousness.
    But maybe I’m missing something.

  29. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    FDRLincoln, one could say that the hits of your session are a total of incomplete claims, generalities and luck. I do not say it like that, but most scientists would not accept this. And I wonder if your session requires super-psi because the medium was not possessed nor showed the mannerisms of the deceased, nor the communication was face to face. It might was just a case of telepathy, generalities and luck.

  30. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    Interesting catalogue of experimental data from Dean Radin’s website:
    http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

  31. Bill Avatar
    Bill

    “However, again I note that Bill has gone quiet when asked to explain in reductionist-materialist terms how FDR’s medium”
    Sorry, I haven’t been online recently. Il respond to the long comments Michael and others gave me in a few days.
    I have managed to find someone, not a medium but an old psychic called Rafael Schermann. As far as I know he was not caught in fraud. He did something called “Psycho-graphology”. Not saying I believe in his phenomena but it’s nice to find someone more respectable than trumpets or any of that stuff. Maybe Michael Prescott or Michael Tymn knows some info about him? I have some old books that mention him but translation is being difficult. Why is this guy not more known?

  32. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Bill said,
    ||Sorry, I haven’t been online recently.||
    No need to apologize!

  33. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    Telepathy still invalidates materialism.

  34. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    FDRLincoln said,
    ||Telepathy still invalidates materialism.||
    Right! With the super-psi argument, we are in a bit of an odd place. Who actually *believes* in super-psi?
    • Are there a bunch of materialists who have been convinced by the kinds of evidence we discuss here and are advocating super-psi as the most parsimonious explanation? I don’t think so.
    • Are there a bunch of “believers” who used to believe in the Afterlife but who have been “converted” to the super-psi perspective? I don’t know any such people, here or elsewhere–except for Michael Sudduth (maybe–we don’t really know *what* he believes). We debate the possibility on here, but no one actually seems to advocate it.
    • Is someone concern-trolling “believers” by putting the super-psi hypothesis out there?
    There is something I call the “layered approach” that can arise organically to support a particular side of an issues. For example, with Skeptics here are the layers:
    1. Screechers of, “No evidence! There izzz no evidennnnce!” like Daleks. This is what most Skeptics do, quite frankly. On the whole, they are not subtle.
    2. The lawyerly layer. These Skeptics are rare, but there is always this type of gap to fill and someone to fill it (Sudduth seems to be playing this role). I *did* read in some type of Skeptical literature about 15 years ago, that *at best* paranormal phenomenon boil down to psi and don’t prove the existence of an Afterlife. It was a kind of early super-psi argument. I think super-psi is advocated for mainly in this way today: a kind of extra layer of defense the Skeptics employ, just in case.
    3. “Nice Skeptics,” fellow travelers, concern trolls, et al. Again, most Skeptics want to let their rage flag fly high, but there are people in the media who have a skeptical agenda and work to make it palatable to the masses. There are concern trolls everywhere–any non-Skeptical website dealing with phenomena seems to attract Skeptics in various levels of openness.

  35. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    “Telepathy still invalidates materialism.”
    I do not care materialism. What I want is to know if some mediums are in contact with spirits of the deceased.

  36. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    Matt Rouge, sorry but your previous comment seems unhelpful, because it is not what beliefs people have, but what goes on during a mediumship session.

  37. ian Avatar
    ian

    Feel kinda sorry about David not being able to comment anymore, as he reminded me of when I left Christianity and had a lot of fears, doubts, and questions when it came to the spiritual. However, I do agree with him on the idea that malevolent spirits do exist, and that that it’s a good idea to take a look at all spiritual material and what it says to see if it bears good fruit or not, in the form or promoting compassion, kindness, helping others, and making the world a better place.
    In the case of FDRLincoln’s reading by a medium, if the spirit tried to tell her to do questionable things or stroke her ego, I’d be wary, especially if the spirit kept trying to become a part of her life instead of living it the way she wanted to without outside interference. But I get the sense that the provided details were just to confirm the identity of her mother, and if the reading was to help her gain comfort, peace of mind, and to help her move on with her life, I would say it really was her.
    On the original subject matter of this post, I don’t recall hearing about Sloan before, but if the book and the records contained within it are correct, then he sounds like a fascinating man.

  38. SPatel Avatar
    SPatel

    @ Matt:
    I suspect a good number of parapsychologists would advocate Super-Psi as apparently a decent number are, in fact, materialists or perhaps panpsychists who think (or hope?) the end of life is the end of their consciousness.
    If there are some young, up & coming parapsychologists – and let’s hope there are – this desire to deny the afterlife might dissipate in the West as the power of religious institutions wane and people stop thinking God hates them and wants to damn them for naughty teenage thoughts & the like.

  39. Roberta Avatar
    Roberta

    Does anyone know of any organisations of anywhere to go to meet NDEr’s in the UK?
    The IAND’s website has groups in many places but not in the UK!

  40. Roberta Avatar
    Roberta

    Sci – Which Parapsychologists are materialists to your knowledge?
    I know of there young Parapsychologists, not sure of their philosophical views though. If we want more we need to build the field collectively! 🙂

  41. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    Ian: the general theme was of loving presence, kindness, and “don’t worry, I’m fine, and you will be too.” Lots of encouragement regarding various life problems, as well as a thanks for the way the funeral was handled. There wasn’t anything remotely malevolent. She also made it clear she had reconciled with my dead father (their marriage was bad, again not something the medium should know) but that she prefers the company of her mother and sister on the other side.
    One validation point was she said that putting her car in my sister’s name was the right thing to do, and she was glad i didn’t put up a fight about it even though it was of a slight financial detriment to me.
    The interesting thing about this validation point: we had put the car in my sister’s name about three hours before I talked with the medium. It wasn’t public record yet, no way even a private investigator could have found that unless they had a spy at the courthouse.

  42. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    Ian: in response to your comment: I’m actually a “he” in this lifetime, not a “she” 🙂
    Also, I actually agree that malevolent spirits exist, as well as not-purely-malevolent-but-mischievous ones. Fortunately in my spiritual explorations I have been fortunate enough to avoid those types, although I know people who have not been so lucky.

  43. Bruce Siegel Avatar

    Roberta said:
    “The IAND’s website has groups in many places but not in the UK!”
    Could it be that people in the UK who get a taste of death usually decide against coming back? If so, what does that say about *life* in the UK?
    Just kidding. (And spoken by someone who’d have a hard time filling his leisure hours if it weren’t for all that great British TV.)

  44. Lawrence B Avatar
    Lawrence B

    FDRLincoln did you,as is often recommended, record the session? If so would it be possible to upload and post a link to it or at least relevant sections of it? Or alternatively type out a transcript?
    It seems to me that there is always a disconnection between other people’s truly convincing tales (in this case yours) of encounters with mediums and one’s own experiences/things witnessed on tv etc. That’s to say there are no shortage of astonishing anecdotes about the medium who said X but couldn’t possibly have known it, and yet that impressive medium is always just out of reach, eternally confined to other people’s stories. Even someone who accepts the reality of much paranormal phenomena – eg me – will always wonder along with the debunkers like Bill how accurately summarised the described experience really is, and flatter ourselves with the suspicion that if it was *US* rather than you, we’d have brilliantly seen exactly how she did it..or indeed didn’t.
    For example you summarise that she said putting the car in your sister’s name was a good idea. As a summary and the only information available to us its impossible to contradict. But would we be as convinced by a verbatim transcript of both sides of the conversation, including every er, um and interjection? I expect and would hope so but I think the absence of a sense of being there ourselves and hearing or reading every detail of what was said around these revelations makes it difficult to expect someone like Bill to take up the challenged of debunking it.
    The arch skeptic’s usual first line of attack in terms of debunking the personal reading is to point out where the medium didn’t so much say as ask, or where the sitter provided more of the details than they sincerely recall etc. So it would be ideal I think to be able to hear/read those parts of the reading to be able to do away with that always possible inference.

  45. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I’m not sure why anyone who accepted survival would doubt that there were unpleasant or malevolent dead people just as there are amongst the living.

  46. Ian Avatar
    Ian

    Hi FDRLincoln
    Sorry about the gender mix-up there. I have no idea how that happened, so, my bad!
    Secondly, thank you for clarifying more about your read with the medium. In fact, as I said on the first page, it’s been a delight to read all these details about it. When people like me don’t really have any spiritual experiences, per se, it’s a tremendous comfort to read other people’s encounters with the mysterious and know that, despite what Skeptics might say, it really does exist.

  47. FDRLincoln Avatar
    FDRLincoln

    Lawrence B: That’s an entirely fair question, and yes we did record the session. The medium is going to send me a copy of it.
    I am interested in reviewing it myself to make sure the reality was as impressive as my memory. Memory can be malleable and I’d like to confirm that I am remembering certain things correctly.

  48. lynn Avatar
    lynn

    Like FDR Lincoln I have had very specific data given to me in readings.
    One old lady amazed me, she told me the specific area in which I had once lived, and the suburbs of friends I socialised with. Now this was before facebook, and where I had lived previously was 150 km’s from where we were.
    She told me of a wedding coming up, the personality of the groom and that it was a family member- with relevant information about the person. It wasn’t till I got home I realised who she might mean, rang her and asked. And she said “no way I’ve just broken up from a relationship”. Well 3 months later she met someone, the marriage happened quite fast and I never met the guy although I’ve been told he was just like she described.
    She said it would happen fast, there would be some hiccups, but it would go ahead. And thats exactly what happened.
    Another lady told me of my grandmother, the one who clears her throat a lot- ‘I think its habit”. Yep, dead right and “all I can smell is cheese scones”. Yep, she was famous for her recipe made with lemonade.
    Just saying..Lyn x.

  49. Juan Avatar
    Juan

    My comments have not yet been answered.

  50. M Blick Avatar

    I have read Arthur Findlays book as well and thought it very convincing. He took every measure to make sure John Sloan wasn’t cheating.
    I’ve read Tom Harrison’s book written about his mother Minnie who was a medium who materialised spirits. He seemed a very sincere, straight up sort of person, who was convinced about the abilities of his mother. . Does anyone know if she was a fraud or not.
    Btw, writing from New Zealand.

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