The Atlantic has an interesting article on "post-VR sadness" – apparently a fairly common syndrome, in which people who use high-end virtual-reality devices experience feelings of depersonalization, derealization, and depression after returning to the real world. As the sub-headline puts it, "After exploring a virtual world, some people can’t shake the sense that the actual world isn’t real, either."

As someone who's interested in the idea that the "real world" might be a kind of virtual reality simulation in itself, albeit far more sophisticated and subtle than anything our technology can produce, I found some of these excerpts pretty intriguing (all links in the original):

The ailments range from feeling temporarily fuzzy, light-headed, and in a dream-like state, to more severe detachment that lasts days—or weeks. …

“[W]hile standing and in the middle of a sentence, I had an incredibly strange, weird moment of comparing real life to the VR,” wrote the video-game developer Lee Vermeulen after he tried Valve’s SteamVR system back in 2014. He was mid-conversation with a coworker when he started to feel off, and the experience sounds almost metaphysical. “I understood that the demo was over, but it was [as] if a lower level part of my mind couldn’t exactly be sure. It gave me a very weird existential dread of my entire situation, and the only way I could get rid of that feeling was to walk around or touch things around me.” …

Using a questionnaire to measure participants’ levels of dissociation before and after exposure to VR, Aardema found that VR increases dissociative experiences and lessens people’s sense of presence in actual reality. He also found that the greater the individual’s pre-existing tendency for dissociation and immersion, the greater the dissociative effects of VR. …

While derealization is the feeling that the world isn’t real, depersonalization is the feeling that one’s self isn’t real. People who’ve experienced depersonalization say that it feels like they’re outside of their bodies, watching themselves. Derealization makes a person’s surroundings feel strange and dream-like, in an unsettling way, despite how familiar they may be. …

In March, Alanah Pearce, an Australian video game journalist and podcast host, recounted troubling post-VR symptoms after the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco. “I was very fatigued. I was dizzy. And it definitely hits that strange point where the real world feels surreal,” she said. “I’m not going to go into that too in-depth, because it’s something I haven’t yet grasped. But I know that I’m not alone, and other people who play VR feel the same thing, where it’s like, nothing really feels real anymore. It’s very odd.”

The article points out that there's a difference between the better-known effects of VR, such as motion sickness, and the more subtle but often more lingering psychological side effects.

This isn't an altogether new thing. Some people who saw the movie Avatar on an IMAX screen in 3D later complained that the real world paled by comparison. They weren't just kidding around. They seemed to experience a real sense of psychological withdrawal and a degree of difficulty in accepting ordinary reality again.

DAK_AVATARHelp for Avatar withdrawal? Disney is developing a theme-park attraction that brings the planet of Pandora to life.

What struck me as particularly interesting is that the psychological effects described by subjects in the Atlantic piece are very similar to the state of mind often described by mystics or by people who have had intense transcendent experiences, such as NDEs. The feeling that the physical world is unreal, or at least less real than it appears, has been noted by people who contrast the hyperreality of an NDE or a transported mystical state with mundane reality. The intuition that the self is only a construct, something not ultimately real, is the realization toward which many meditative practices are directed.

Incidentally, there been reports that the practice of mindfulness meditation can also lead to feelings of derealization and depersonalization, along with a significant increase in anxiety. This may be further evidence that the mental state that sometimes follows virtual-reality immersion can be similar to the mental state produced by some methods of meditation. The Atlantic article itself notes that one person's post-VR experience "sounds almost metaphysical." Indeed.

And while I'm sure these changes of mind can be disorienting and upsetting to people who are unprepared for them, and may even be dangerous in people with a history of anxiety or depression, it's at least possible that these new outlooks, if creatively embraced and utilized, will prove not so much pathological as liberating.

The Atlantic piece frets:

To what extent is VR causing users to question the nature of their own reality? And how easily are people able to tackle this line of questioning without losing their grip?

A more difficult question, one the Atlantic doesn't ask, is whether or not the newfound perspective reported by these VR users might be valid. Could these people actually be correct in seeing the physical world as less than fully real and in seeing their own personal identity as an artificial construction? Rather than a step into madness, maybe they've taken a step toward greater sanity.

Or maybe not. It's much too early to tell.

But as VR becomes more ubiquitous and more fully immersive, we can expect to learn a lot more about how the mind processes its interaction with an environment that feels real but is only a remarkable simulation. At the same time, we may end up learning more about reality itself.

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  1. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    Ps. I’d just like to say here that perhaps the best fictional example I ever found of a true leader, in terms of leading by example, is the character Atticus Finch in Harper Lee’s novel,’To Kill a Mockingbird’. For me, that character has it all. 🙂

  2. Eric Newhill Avatar
    Eric Newhill

    Michael,
    I totally agree with your last comment.
    1. It is absolutely true that sometimes the meekest looking man rises to the occasion in a life and death situation and the guy who looked the alpha part, crumbles. No question about it.
    That’s why alpha-ness is something that only becomes real when an individual has not only trained, or otherwise prepared via life experience, for such a serious challenge, and then has actually performed in such a situation.
    It just can’t be faked and it’s uncertain until put to the test, whatever that is.
    2. I am definitely over-simplifying things. However, I like to start at the ground level and then at on as opposed to coming at things from the top down.
    3. I would never say that a proven alpha doesn’t or can’t have a soft sensitive side. I know personally very well two genuine war hero. Awards for valor, etc. They’re a bit older than I and they fought in Vietnam. They both like kittens and one really likes to play with little children; just get right in there and lie on the ground with the toys and the child (or kitten), making car sounds with toy cars, that sort of thing. These are tough men that killed a lot of people.
    In fact most of the men I know that have seen heavy combat are like that. They display a gentle side most of the time in their private lives. I do know some that don’t. They are a problem in society.
    One reason is that they have nothing to prove to themselves or anyone else concerning how tough they are. They don’t talk about it to people that can relate because there’s no need. If they talk about it to people that can’t relate, they scare people and get called bad names.
    I don’t talk about some things for the same reason and now I’m more convinced than ever that it is a really bad idea to try to explain any such things to people who have never been shot at, attacked by knife wielding killers, lost friends to these unfortunate situations. It just scares people and I think it is rude to do that. And the pushback causes acrimony. And, it seems that people take it the wrong way. Instead of seeing it as a valid perspective or instructional, they often see it as macho bragging – which is bizarre to my mind. Thy just can’t understand that someone might be trying to help them see what the world can be like and is like for some people perhaps through bad luck, a chosen profession (eg. police, soldier, spy, firefighter….).
    On that note, I’m taking a break from this commenting on this blog. I just can’t relate to “spiritual” people anymore. I am still a 100% believer in the topics we discuss here, I just have nothing more to add to the discussions and have come to see everything through a political lense; which I think is not appropriate for this space. I will still read though!
    Best wishes to all.
    Eric

  3. Michael Vann Avatar
    Michael Vann

    “Listen very carefully, Michael Vann, I shall say this only once: My comment referred to warfare. If you want to completely destroy a nation then its greatest vulnerability is its womenfolk.”
    Even if I accept that, so what? Does that obligate men to do something for you?
    “I like to think I would give up my seat in the lifeboat to a woman. I respect that tradition. It’s the reason I singled out John Jacob Astor IV as a ‘manly man.’”
    And I can respect that as a principled traditionalist stance. My fear of modern feminists is that their convictions are readily tossed aside out of opportunism. They may decry gender roles and patriarchy, but they’ve no issue cozying up to them when they offer gendered advantages.
    “Although the discussion seems to have taken a somewhat acrimonious turn, I think Eric Newhill and Michael Vann deserve credit for putting forth opinions that are more widely shared than many of us probably realize. And I don’t think they’re entirely wrong. I just think the view they’re presenting is oversimplified, and I’m not sure it has much to do with science, despite the use of science-y terms like “alpha male.”
    It is oversimplified, but then most of the discussions we have in a mass culture with a lamentably short attention span are. Many of the ideas that inform our public discourse are gross oversimplifications. Examples include:
    Women are oppressed, men are privileged.
    Minorities are oppressed, whites are privileged.
    Atheists are smart, religious people are dumb.
    PSI and related experiences are only believed by gullible ignoramuses who fear death.
    None of these is really true, but they are expressions that reinforce tribal loyalty by othering the outsiders. I don’t think humanity will ever transcend tribalism, frankly. I actually think it can prove very useful when employed to drive peaceful or even not-so-peaceful competition, as in the space race, the nuclear race, the burgeoning race for cyber superiority, etc. My concern is that movements that operate on these oversimplifications will realign tribal loyalties in ways that will be much more destructive in the end. To put it bluntly, movements that operate on these oversimplifications will realign tribal loyalties along boundaries of race and gender, and that will prove disastrous for family structure and social and national cohesion. I’ve seen it in myself. When I ask myself if I would go out of my way to defend or support a woman and am forced to answer no, excepting only women known to me personally, I confront the reality that the woman who is a stranger to me is a wife, a daughter, a sister or a lover to someone somewhere. And I would certainly want a man to come to the aid of women I care about if I wasn’t around. But the acrimony of our political discourse is destroying my ability to do so. It’s easy to say “man up” or “rise above,” but when you live in a culture that constantly indicts your masculinity yet constantly demands obeisances from it, I don’t feel much like participating.

  4. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Good additional comments, Michael!
    Just to set the record straight on one thing, Wally Cox was actually very built and athletic; only in his TV and movie roles was he a nerdy wimp:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Cox#Personal_life
    Another example of a strong, athletic man regularly playing a nebbishy type is Harold Lloyd.

  5. chel Avatar
    chel

    Strength? My friend and my dad have both battled depression and won, a battle I’m still fighting on and off, and while I don’t know the details of my dad’s I know my friend has been suicidal and got through it. The alpha males can get back to me when they win after their own brains try to kill them.

  6. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    PPS. Apparently, this great rough, tough alpha hero of America is a self-proclaimed germaphobe!
    You couldn’t write the script. 🙂

  7. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “Listen very carefully, Michael Vann, I shall say this only once: My comment referred to warfare. If you want to completely destroy a nation then its greatest vulnerability is its womenfolk.”
    Even if I accept that, so what? Does that obligate men to do something for you?” – Michael Vann
    Not in the least. If the women folk are destroyed then the future of the nation is destroyed. It’s nothing to do with individuals. But if you don’t understand the point I’m making then I really can’t explain it anymore clearly,

  8. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “I’m taking a break from this commenting on this blog. I just can’t relate to “spiritual” people anymore. I am still a 100% believer in the topics we discuss here, I just have nothing more to add to the discussions and have come to see everything through a political lense; which I think is not appropriate for this space. I will still read though!” – Eric Newhill
    Now I understand what it is that Eric and Donald really have in common: they’re two big soft lads together. As my grandmother would say, “Aw, look. His ball’s burst and his clog lets water in.” But then she did live through two world wars.

  9. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “And I hope Trump succeeds simply so that his success will bury, if only for a time, this self-indulgent overemphasis on blind love. Politics is a side-effect of culture (“downstream” from culture, as Andrew Breitbart said). We’ve had a culture where love was championed and fear castigated, as if only one was a legitimate and permissible emotion. It’s time for the pendulum to swing back.”
    Oh I shouldn’t worry. It’s looking increasingly likely that America will place the razor well-and-truly in the monkey’s hand on Friday.
    And as for someone (Matt?) suggesting that women are generally more docile than men . . . . . you really don’t know much about women, do you? Studies here in the UK show clearly that bullying in our schools is predominantly among females, who are proving to be far more aggressive than the boys.
    I’ve often noticed that men will more easily come around to a general consensus view. Women, on the other hand, are more likely to stick firmly to their guns. One reason why men are more likely to back down is because they fear that there’s a chance of physical conflict if a disagreement escalates.
    Interestingly, a gay friend of mine was married to a man before she fully accepted her sexual orientation and, later, entered into a civil union with a woman. She’s a criminal barrister and, therefore, pretty tough and resilient by nature. She tells me that, in her experience of intimate relationships, men are far easier to handle than women. And I suspect she’s probably right.
    Lastly, I do so wish you chaps would stop trying to pronounce what it is that women are attracted to in a man because, frankly, you have no idea. 🙂
    ‘The female of the species is more deadly than the male.’ – Rudyard Kipling

  10. Art Avatar
    Art

    I could care less about politics. I live like a Hermit anyway and have sort of a Tao outlook on life. Wu-wei, action through inaction. Like a tree that bends in the wind and then is able to straighten back up after a storm or water going downhill that goes around an obstacle instead of bashing into it. A good friend of mine once said to me “Art, responsibility rolls off you like water off a duck’s back.”
    When I was a kid growing up my mom used to say to me sometimes “You just gotta live in this world kiddo!” My outlook on life mirrors something Jesus said to Pilate, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” This life is temporary and just a holographic illusion anyway and like Michelle M called it in her NDE description “a dream in itself.” Or the song “I don’t want to get adjusted to this world.”
    I don’t want to get adjusted – Iris Dement


  11. Roger Knights Avatar
    Roger Knights

    Julie says: Apparently, this great rough, tough alpha hero of America is a self-proclaimed germaphobe!

    Well, George Washington didn’t want to shake hands with people either. (OTOH, neither did Howard Hughes.)
    A “joy buzzer” ought to deter would-be hand-shakers. BZZAPP! (That’ll larn you, Mr. Xi!)

  12. SPatel Avatar
    SPatel

    I’m honestly curious:
    Were Jesus and Buddha alphas? Gandhi and MLK?
    It’s funny I recently talked with a friend of mine about the value of being told to “man up” (though it can apply to women), to accept that one has to just deal with problems in life without getting into a spiral of self-pity…I do think, however, that it seems what might be missing from the “alpha” conception is that very stoicism…but at the same time I can see the negatives of this kind of thinking as well ->
    Men who lock away their emotions but ultimately this breaks them because they don’t process it. Perhaps if there were greater spiritual rituals, another thing the materialist cults would deny us….but perhaps in the context of “it’s just game” VR might be the in-road to those very ritual processes – a sort of initiation through video games. After all, Plato left us with an initiation process in the Republic, where most people simply think they’re reading a treatise about the State. A modern conception of that process could easily find a home in VR.
    There’s also some thoughts about Lucid Dreaming as therapy. I would recommend any of this stuff as necessarily a replacement for medication when needed, though there is a great debate about the efficacy of mood altering drugs. I think ultimately, given some people credit anti-depressants and the like for saving their lives, we may simply be too varied as persons to make once-size-fits-all claims.
    This likely gets into the alpha/beta stuff as well, going back to Garak (thanks Michael Vann for the correction). I still think there’s some value to the “man up” idea even here (I admit this seems contradictory) but we should recognize one person’s easy, daily life may be climbing Everest for another.

  13. chel Avatar
    chel

    At the risk of being dismissed as a teenager from Tumblr, sexual attraction and romantic attraction aren’t the same thing. A woman can quite realistically be aroused by a big rough man and emotionally and rationally want nothing to do with him because she thinks he’s a dumb meathead.

  14. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “At the risk of being dismissed as a teenager from Tumblr, sexual attraction and romantic attraction aren’t the same thing. A woman can quite realistically be aroused by a big rough man and emotionally and rationally want nothing to do with him because she thinks he’s a dumb meathead.”
    The the big rough man has never ‘aroused’ me, Chel. I suspect that most intelligent women are turned of by intelligent men – and vice-versa. It’s nothing to do with brute strength in any shape or form.
    But I do agree in that an excessively muscular body – or even an emphasis on the musculature frame – suggests ‘meathead’ to me. I suppose it’s an instinctive thing.
    But then most men seem to find it hard to believe that beautiful women can be also intelligent and warm.

  15. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    LOL! The post has gone now. But I meant to say that intelligent women are turned on most by intelligent men. Intelligence is a very sexy attribute. 🙂

  16. Kathleen Avatar
    Kathleen

    The real “alpha” male when it comes to anything Trump is of course, Vladimer Putin, ex-KGB agent and dictator of Russia and who seems to have a very very special relationship with Trump. I think it’s a lot harder to train to be a KGB agent than to inherit millions from your dad, but that’s just my opinion of course. He’s also in far, far better shape physically than Trump, and is far more articulate. He’s probably also a psychopath, but then so is Trump probably.
    “It amuses me that liberals seem so moonstruck by Obama’s veneer and so repulsed by Trump’s.” Nope, I never was and never will be, I was concerned mostly with his policies, and was disappointed. I voted for him twice, primarily because the alternatives were so bleak.

  17. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Julie wrote,
    ||And as for someone (Matt?) suggesting that women are generally more docile than men . . . . . you really don’t know much about women, do you? Studies here in the UK show clearly that bullying in our schools is predominantly among females, who are proving to be far more aggressive than the boys.||
    Psychological differences between men and women are extremely complicated. You can use one adjective and have to qualify it a dozen ways because there are numerous exceptions and countervailing phenomena. It’s further complicated by the fact that men interact much differently with men than they do women, and vice versa.
    The bullying thing doesn’t surprise me. Women are said to be nastier to each other than men are to each other. Men typically avoid competing directly with women in everyday life, as do women with women. Men seem to compete with each other in much more concrete ways, whereas women are subtler and slyer in competing with each other. The movie “Mean Girls” exists for a reason.
    But in terms of the aforementioned docility, I meant it in the context of the workplace. Men have the drug testosterone coursing through their veins. They get ambitious, they will fight bosses, they will do the big job search and leave companies if they don’t get what they feel they want or need. Do women do that too? Yes. It’s a matter of degree.
    I can give one example. I have a colleague I’ve worked with for going on 15 years who has a small business. In a case of reverse sexism, he won’t, simply won’t, hire men. He finds them just too hard to deal with. It’s not that he treats his exclusively female employees with anything but perfect respect, but he just finds that women will do what he wants them to do, and men comply less so.
    ||I’ve often noticed that men will more easily come around to a general consensus view. Women, on the other hand, are more likely to stick firmly to their guns. One reason why men are more likely to back down is because they fear that there’s a chance of physical conflict if a disagreement escalates.||
    You may be right, but I don’t think it’s the fear of a physical conflict. Men (who aspire to being a part of civilized society), in fact, rarely fight. I’ve heard that men organize more around abstract principles, whereas women organize more around social constructs. That seems right to me and could explain the greater ease you note of men forming a consensus.
    ||She tells me that, in her experience of intimate relationships, men are far easier to handle than women. And I suspect she’s probably right.||
    I think that’s true as well. But again, complicated. Anyhow, I don’t disagree with much you said. I meant docility in a specific context.

  18. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “Anyhow, I don’t disagree with much you said.”
    Then I’ll just have to change my mind. 🙂

  19. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “He’s also in far, far better shape physically than Trump, and is far more articulate. He’s [Putin] probably also a psychopath, but then so is Trump probably.” – Kathleen
    Putin also knows how to flatter and manipulate Trump. He calls Trump a ‘smart guy’ when he knows, full well, he’s a virtual imbecile. It’s the oldest method in the book of making a monkey of someone . . . . . . but since Trump is already a monkey. :/

  20. Roger Knights Avatar
    Roger Knights

    Re male/female differences, here’s what I’ve come up with
    Guys interact; gals relate. Guys are spotlights, gals are floodlights.
    This (I gather from its blurb on Amazon) is a nutshell version of the thesis of the book Women’s Ways of Knowing, at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00368BCYG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
    (I seem to remember a similar book, A Different Way of Knowing, by a Harvard professor, but I couldn’t find it on Amazon. Maybe it had a slightly different title.

  21. Kathleen Avatar
    Kathleen

    Yes, Julie, agree, Putin knows very well that Trump has a peculiar personality disorder that makes him very susceptible to flattery.
    Matt, I tend to think a lot of personality is determined by societal conditioning. Women are brought up to be “good” girls, polite, and compliant, otherwise we’re labeled a b***h or worse.
    I’ve never really observed such drastic male/female behavior in animals for instance. The worst, most dangerous horse I ever dealt with was a mare, the only animal that ever came close to really physically harming me. And then you see some stallions that a kid could ride.

  22. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    “I tend to think a lot of personality is determined by societal conditioning. Women are brought up to be “good” girls, polite, and compliant, otherwise we’re labeled a b***h or worse.”
    You’ve taken me back in time, Kathleen. When I became the chairman of a medium sized company, here in the UK, the president told me that my approach was somewhat aggressive. Without being asked to elaborate, he followed up with, “I suppose if you were a man you’d been seen as dominant.”
    Again, I ask: would Trump be where he is today if he was a woman? Would American society accept such a woman as leader? (Assuming that America would accept any kind of woman as leader.)

  23. Matt Rouge Avatar
    Matt Rouge

    Kathleen wrote,
    ||Matt, I tend to think a lot of personality is determined by societal conditioning. Women are brought up to be “good” girls, polite, and compliant, otherwise we’re labeled a b***h or worse.||
    Our society is in a very odd stage right now with respect to this issue, in which we haven’t decided whether it’s politically correct to believe in cognitive, psychological, and behavioral differences between men and women. I don’t think even the feminists have decided (they seem to apply either point of view as convenient in the particular moment; not that they are a unified team, anyway). But I’ll state what I think is an obvious fact: men and women are quite different.
    I totally agree that society mediates these differences. The question arises, however, why societies around the world and throughout history have displayed the same roles and differences, with exceptions and anomalies existing, of course. For example, if the average person without much historical knowledge were shown male and female outfits from a variety of cultures and historical periods, he or she could guess which belong to which sex with I’m sure at least 90% accuracy.
    ||I’ve never really observed such drastic male/female behavior in animals for instance. The worst, most dangerous horse I ever dealt with was a mare, the only animal that ever came close to really physically harming me. And then you see some stallions that a kid could ride.||
    As Michael pointed out, sex roles in other species are often completely different. The fact that some species have sex roles that are opposite to those of humans does not mean that humans do not have such roles.

  24. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    Scans have shown ways in which male and female human brains differ. But the more androgynous members of both sexes tend to be very similar in outlook and brain patterning. They also tend to be the most intelligent.

  25. Bruce Siegel Avatar
    Bruce Siegel

    Julie said:
    “They also tend to be the most intelligent.”
    I have a problem with statements like that. Because intelligence comes in so many forms, it’s misleading to make blanket pronouncements.
    For example, when it comes to questions of love, joy, and relationship, Downs syndrome people are often among the most intelligent of human beings, and Harvard professors the dumbest.

  26. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    Yes, IQ and EQ are not always combined in the same package. 🙂

  27. chel Avatar
    chel

    @Julie: I’m not either, but plenty of women are. Then again, my situation is a bit different and I’m not interested like that in anyone. Don’t know how much anyone here knows about asexuality – may or may not be a side effect of my autism, but either way I don’t feel I’m missing anything. My life’s much less complicated this way.
    This is not connected to the current discussion but is relevant to general topics here and I think people will appreciate it: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTMLhttp://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML

  28. Julie Baxter Avatar
    Julie Baxter

    @Chel: I’m speaking very generally. When I say ‘androgynous’ I mean the ‘tom boy’ and the ‘John Boy’ if you get my drift. The Barbie doll and the Action man are not the epitome of intelligent human life.

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